Revealing how dating apps are powerful social technologies that are radically transforming sexuality, relationships, and how we think about ourselves, this remarkable book cracks the code of modern romance. Told with humour and vulnerability, Sticky, Sexy, Sad is a riveting and inspiring guide to staying true to ourselves amid the digitization of love in the twenty-first century.
Sarah Marie: Okay! Hi Treena! So, we’re here today to talk about your book, Sticky, Sexy, Sad: Swipe Culture & The Darker Side of Dating Apps. How are you?
Treena Orchard: I’m good! I’m happy to be here
Sarah Marie: I would like to start with the fact that I’ve actually watched a number of interviews that you’ve given about the book. I have to say, you’ve done a lot of press! I feel like there’s a big international presence for your book promotion, too. I kind of like to get a sense of the questions you may have already been asked, because I think that this sort of promotion can get very repetitive for writers. Can you talk a little bit about that experience, so far?
Treena Orchard: Yeah, the marketing and promotion has been a really interesting process. It’s new to me in a way, a book is different from an article that I’ve written, you know? I’ve been writing publicly on different sites for many years, and promoting that writing has been fairly standard. But when it’s a book, the stakes are different. And, I did quite a lot of research before the book came out looking at other authors and their strategies for marketing and promotion. I had a vision board that I gave to the publisher, and they were like, “well, this is a first”!
SM: Oh, neat!
Treena Orchard: I was extremely ambitious and had some big numbers in mind, and how to do it, but also lots of questions, because I had never done this before. It was quite stressful to learn how and when to do it, and what to do in the lulls. You know, like, when you didn’t have a podcast or when it seems like nobody was talking about it, or no one was reviewing it. These are all stages, and it took a long time for me to get sort of comfortable with the whole process. I reached out to lots of other authors and read as much as I could. But it was also really exciting, too, because I was able to make connections with people. And you know, I’ve already got a fairly strong international presence because of my research and other writing, so I was also tapping into that. That part was fun. Also going to BC, and Winnipeg, where I used to live, and certainly my hometown of Saskatoon was really great. Seeing my family as an audience member at a publicity event was something new, because they are never able to come to my stuff, because I’m always so many provinces away. So that was a very fun experience.
Sarah Marie: I know you are an academic, And so you’re probably writing in academic journals and places like that. Can you talk a little bit more about the other stuff that you’re doing that might also be accessible to the public? Stuff that wouldn’t be necessarily something that would just be directed at students or other professors?
Treena Orchard: Yeah, I think the space that I’ve written for most in terms of public facing or public intellectual work would be The Conversation Canada. I’ve done about 15 articles for them, and I think that has really helped pave the way for an audience for me. It’s also nice because you can have metrics. I know we might not always like to be governed by numbers, but they can be helpful when thinking about promoting yourself to a podcast or a literary agent. And the articles I write for The Conversation are between 800-900 words. So not too long, just enough to say something kind of nice. It’s been a learning experience to write for that space, too.
Sarah Marie: What do you mean?
Treena Orchard: I got to work more intensively with editors. I think I pretty much have it down now, but I sort of used that formula from The Conversation to do a piece in Maclean’s Magazine. I have a Substack that I write, not quite as often as I probably should, as well as a blog on Psychology Today, and they also want you to do pieces that are under 1000 words. I would say that my experiences with The Conversation have been helpful for all of that.
Sarah Marie: That’s very insightful. I wouldn’t have made those connections, I think.
Treena Orchard: Yeah! Like you said, I’ve been interviewed in a lot of other spaces as well, some really higher profile stuff that’s new to me. These high impact places like Cosmopolitan, and you know, Huffpost, The Independent, Refinery 29. I got those interview gigs through a source called HARO. Which stands for: Help A Reporter Out. And I’ve also used Quoted, and those are spaces where reporters are working on stories, and they put their questions for their stories out there, and if your area of expertise aligns, you can pitch to them, and then you might be included in their story for an interview, or they might just use your responses to their questions. That’s also been a very helpful resource to get my name out there for this book in terms of high impact bylines.
Sarah Marie: All of that seems very helpful, and I am leaving all of that in here. Seriously, thank you for that. Okay. I have to switch gears. You are an anthropologist.
Treena Orchard: Yes.
Sarah Marie: This is not necessarily an academic text. I mean, obviously it could be. It will definitely be in academic spaces. But what I mean is that it was not intended to be an academic text. This was intended to be something a little bit more public facing. Right?
Treena Orchard: I never wanted it to be a research study, because I’ve done those before. I wanted to do something that was creative, partly because I wanted to prove to myself that I could do a book like this, but also because I feel like it’s more of a real book than an academic book. If that makes sense? It’s more literary.
Sarah Marie: It does.
Treena Orchard: Those are the books that I grew up with. I didn’t grow up with academic studies. I grew up with literary books, and those are the books that have changed my life. I wanted to make sure that the experiences I was sharing in the book were relatable to people outside of academia.
Sarah Marie: [laughs] Definitely! So this is a memoir, and it has a little bit of, like, critique and reflection. There is also a great bibliography. Most of the sources are popular, but there are some academic sources, too. I did my first pass of your book as the audiobook, and we’re going to talk a little bit about that experience hopefully, if you don’t mind? But, when I did the audiobook and I was telling people about it, I was saying “this is an autoethnography”, and I never looked into whether or not I was describing your book accurately. But, in one of your interviews, I heard you say memoir, and I hadn’t considered that. I thought about it as you sharing your ethnographic research.
Treena Orchard: Yes!
Sarah Marie: But it also has your poetry in some of the chapters, which is really great, by the way. But because I had already told myself this was an ethnography, I treated the poems as ethnographic vignettes, and not your art. I regretted that, obviously.
Treena Orchard: It is kind of a mixed bag. I think that’s why a few literary agents were initially not interested in repping me. They said that they didn’t know how to sell it as a literary book.
Sarah Marie: Right. How frustrating.
Treena Orchard: So I call it a memoir because, well, it’s accurate, and it makes more sense for promotion. But, it’s a memoir that draws upon some of my ethnographic research. So, you’re right, in a sense. It includes poetic reflections, analysis, snippets of field notes, emails, text messages, and screenshots. But, the descriptive parts that make up the core of the book are the kind you would expect in a memoir.
Sarah Marie: You read the book yourself for the audiobooks, right? I think that’s neat because it feels like you’re reading it to me personally.
Treena Orchard: Yeah! That’s what many people have said to me, actually.
Sarah Marie: What was that experience like for you?
Treena Orchard: I was scared shitless, frankly, about doing the audiobook, because I look to sources like the other authors I’ve connected with. Across the board, they say it’s one of the worst things; one of the hardest things they’ve ever done. And I wondered how I would do it. But, you know what, I was in a space where it was all women. The producers, pretty much everyone, and I didn’t get the sense that anybody was in a hurry. I have a bit of a stutter sometimes, and if I get excited or nervous, I trip over my words. So I thought, how am I ever going to actually read every word I’ve written? So I had a lot of trepidation, and the first day didn’t go all that great. It was kind of cold. I didn’t have a proper stand for the book. But then the second day I had a stand, and, within four hours we were 80 pages in, and I was really shocked and kind of proud of myself! And then we finished almost a full day early, and I just went back on a Friday to do maybe an hour and a half of like small little edits and things. It was a very intimate experience, very Meta, in the sense that I’m in a small, enclosed, womb-like space reading and listening to myself reading these things that have been living in my head and my body for years. It was really cool, it felt transformative, and like a real rite of passage as an author.
Sarah Marie: Cause you’re also kind of reading in two voices: the voice of the researcher and the voice of the informant, but in the same voice that wrote the memoir. I can see how that would feel a bit meta.
Treena Orchard: Yeah. And it’s also that insider/outsider subjectivity as well. Right? Like, I am a scholar, but I am the main character
Sarah Marie: Do you read a lot of memoirs?
Treena Orchard: I do. I had a sabbatical a couple of years ago, which is 12 months off from research and teaching in the normal university schedule. My main objective for that sabbatical was to get a literary agent and to get a book deal. I did both things, and I also read about 30 different memoirs, and no memoir is the same. And that’s why it’s so exciting as a genre, and people are getting so much more experimental. It was really an inspiring time.
Sarah Marie: I mean, memoirs are more generally going to be covering a lot of intimate things, a lot of sensitive and vulnerable things. But, with this memoir, I mean, this is your dating life currently, Right? Like, this isn’t a thing that happened in the past in a closed window of time and you’re writing about it as an event. And, the people around you are still using apps for dating. They’re probably your coworkers and students too. So, these apps, this book, they are going to be coming up for you in a very personal way for a while. What is that like to have this out there? Or like, to have this kind of thing that exists in real time, knowing that you’re gonna still be talking about your own dating life as a research topic in such a public way, going forward?
Treena Orchard: I had some trepidation about what folks at my work might think, but I’ve been sort of testing the waters by releasing more public facing things about dating before the book came out. I don’t know how many people actually read any of it, you know. I don’t know how many people are, you know, giggling or pointing fingers, or thinking that, you know. ‘Wow! Who does she think she is?’ I do kind of cringe every now and again thinking about some people reading some of the more intimate things. But then again, I also don’t stay in that space of feeling embarrassed or shameful very long, because one of the main reasons to write the book was to push back against the shame that is thrust upon us. I lived in those boxes for a long time, and it’s my experience. You know, some of the things I talk about are pretty universal, and having the courage to talk about it has been rewarding in some really interesting ways. I hear from people who have reached out and shared their experiences, and just said, ‘thank you’. And so that makes me feel nice.
Sarah Marie: Have you been getting a lot of reviews? like, can you tell me about any standout reviews for the book?
Treena Orchard: There are reviews and one that stands out is from my friend and fellow author, Dave Churchill. He writes about the book, and he has got a photo in his review, and he talks about falling in love with me as he was reading it. Not a romantic love, but he and I share a lot of different things about our past, and struggling with who we are, and being determined to find love. So that one I really appreciated. And the response from my family. You know, my dad did not read the whole book [laughing] but a lot of other people did, and it feels really lovely to have my family approve of it, and to be interested in and inspired by it.
Sarah Marie: Oh, I bet!
Treena Orchard: And then also, I guess there’s like another wave of response that has been meaningful. Quite a few men have reached out to me after reading the book and some of the things I’ve written about men and dating apps, to share their experiences and thank me for being generous and compassionate in my analysis of men’s experience, and not just sort of talking about my negative experiences with them. And so those kinds of things really sit nicely with me.
Sarah Marie: Do you write book reviews?
Treena Orchard: Literary book reviews?
Sarah Marie: Yeah! I’m assuming, you do academic reviews. I think that’s probably part of the job. But do you do any literary reviews?
Treena Orchard: I haven’t really done a formal academic book review. I’ve done many informal ones on Goodreads, and I love doing them. I actually let Hollay at River Street Writing know that. I think she may send me some books to review. I like being very creative with my book reviews.
Sarah Marie: What do you mean? Maybe I should clarify that. I don’t really do them very often. Sometimes I do more of a recommendation, which I feel is a little different than, like, a genuine engagement with the text. I have two reasons. One is that I feel like there are already very good people writing reviews who are qualified, who have experience, who are saying really smart things. I think more than enough reviewing in arts culture that’s kind of like “Good book, not for me, 3 stars, bye!” Like I think there’s just enough of that already. But the second reason is that whenever I try, I hear myself turning into a student. I start trying to dig into the critical arguments the way I would as a student, or comparing the book to other texts. I can hear myself kind of doing that, and well, no one cares about that. And, I suspect that is not really why people write or read fiction, so that sort of engagement might not be helpful to the people of the internet. But, now I also have to say that even if I made the attempt to write engaged reviews, I definitely wouldn’t know how to do it creatively. So, I do actually really want to know more about what you mean by reviewing creatively.
Treena Orchard: Yeah, I mean, I guess I like literary challenges, and I hope it’s not too navel gazing of me to engage creatively with this book. Most authors I’ve shared my reviews with have been very touched by what I’ve said. I don’t take notes or anything while I read. I just like to sit with the story, and what comes, comes. I like to use a lot of visual imagery. I’m very, very influenced by Shirley Jackson and I like to let that sort of work shape the way I would write a review.
Sarah Marie: Right.
Treena Orchard: You know [Jackson wrote about], that psychological tension. I really admire her as a writer because she was working so hard, raising 4 kids, kind of a deadbeat husband who was into a lot of different other things, and she was making money with her writing and supporting her family, which I think is the most incredible thing. . Especially since she did a kind of that writing — gothic — that scared the shit out of America. But, yeah, I like to bring that intense creative energy. I try to incorporate those kinds of things, and write in an unexpected way for me, the way people may not have expected that from her.
Sarah Marie: So, okay, am I drawing too hard of a line between academics and literary writers? I mean, you are a creative writer and a poet, right? So you’re probably uniquely qualified to unpack that anxiety for me. Do you tend to lean toward doing more creative projects than something I would perceive as research.
Treena Orchard: I do many things, my darling.
Sarah Marie: [laughing] That’s very true.
Treena Orchard: You know I’m an interdisciplinary scholar, an academic writer, and a creative writer. I don’t really want to be just sort of one thing, you know? It all blends in my work, and many people commented that they like the fact that Sticky, Sexy, Sad is kind of a blended style, that it can be smart and reflecting, not too fancy, not too academic, but like ‘Oh, she’s making these connections to the larger things in society.’ It’s kind of funny and engaging and intimate, which people also like, because it makes it feel like I’m talking to them. I think some people have appreciated the poetic reflections in the memoir, and in my other writing too. That’s how I try to approach a lot of my projects. With my purely academic stuff, for sure there is a little bit less of the intimate stuff and poetic stuff, but I still try to push myself in those contexts, and to write something that is evocative and could be considered beautiful.
Sarah Marie: Okay so, on that note, do you get asked more questions about any particular section of Sticky, Sexy, Sad? I know you said your feedback has been from everywhere, like people have reached out to you that maybe may not have been your intended audience. But they were still really interested in your book. But are they also asking questions about any specific parts or chapters in the book?
Treena Orchard: Yes. Primarily, Chapter 3 (Feminish), I think, and Chapter 5 (Love Me Tender). Almost no one asks me about Chapter 4 (Copy and Paste), which I think, is the most inventive and innovative chapter by far. But yeah, most people talk about Chapter 3, and a lot of people really, really like Chapter 5, which is about love in different forms. I should say that Chapter 3, which is really the spine of the book, is all about my deep dive into Bumble. I think a lot of people clearly relate to that, and a lot of women relate to the violence and harassment that I really go deeply into in that chapter.
Sarah Marie: What do you think it is about Chapter 4 (Copy & Paste), that people are hesitating to engage with? I mean, do you think people are hesitating to = engage with it, or do you think it’s just really well done, and no one has any questions?
Treena Orchard: [laughing] The latter obviously! Well, I think that the ideas I’m presenting about the fact that the global uptick of these very similar platforms is flattening out many aspects of dating is, maybe, just not all that compelling to people. It’s where I get a little more in the nitty gritty and do a discourse analysis of different websites, so that might not be super interesting to people. You know?
Sarah Marie: I know you’re already getting asked about AI in your interviews. But, I think maybe not everyone understands what counts as AI, because the question you seem to get asked most is “what about AI?” I know there is machine learning in these apps. Certainly there has always been an algorithm. Since you address those things in Chapter 4 (title) I feel like you have already answered the AI question.
Treena Orchard: Yeah, I think there is a distinction between algorithms and AI. AI is when machines start doing things that we used to do sort of, broadly speaking. Whereas when we’re using algorithms, there’s still quite a lot of human input involved. So some people make a distinction between an algorithm and AI. I’m not a super-duper tech scholar, so I can kind of see both sides of the argument, but many platforms, you know, Tinder, Hinge, Bumble certainly has additional AI sources of information and support for dating app users now available. So, it is a question that people ask repeatedly because AI is taking on more of a role in so many aspects of our life. And also AI is coming up in light of the fact that people are so sick of dating apps and so sick of the standard algorithms. And so they’re using AI as a way to enhance their experience on these kinds of crappy platforms. Or, they’re sometimes just shifting strictly to different kinds of AI spaces like Rizz and Meeno that can provide companionship as well as dating advice.
Sarah Marie: You use other social media outside of dating apps; we connected on Instagram. And, I can see that you are using some of that for marketing and engaging with other writers and that sort of thing. Did you do any marketing of your book on dating apps?
Treena Orchard: No, no, I wasn’t swiping when the book came out.
Sarah Marie: I thought that would be the perfect place to market a book like this one. ‘Hey, are you sick of this? You’re not alone. Here are some complicated things.’
Treena Orchard: I don’t know how well it would go over, actually. Because I think it would probably scare off so many people. The fact that I’m a professor who researches dating may make potential matches on the apps feel bad.
Sarah Marie: Because you’re you, and you write about dating and hookups and apps, do you feel like that sort of bleeds into your other social media spaces? Like, are you getting dating propositions on your non-dating platforms?
Treena Orchard: I’ve written about that sort of overlap and the sexualization of multiple digital spaces. I have made a few changes in my Instagram account, and now I hardly ever get people sliding into my DMs or making rude or sexually explicit kind of comments on my posts. It’s been pretty quiet in that regard, which is nice. But what I experienced occasionally is the return of a few men from my past whom I met on dating apps, and having a strange situation unfold where they repeatedly want to reconnect despite me saying no, repeatedly. They keep pushing, and that’s really unsettling. But I posted about these encounters as they were happening to me, and a lot of people responded to that in a supportive way. I haven’t had the dating related things happen that my friends thought would happen when the book came out. Some thought that I‘d be approached by people who wanted to date me on my book tour, but that hasn’t happened.
Sarah Marie: I feel like I have been observing an uptick in opinion pieces on Instagram about selfies. Which definitely feels strange because that is sort of the nature of the platform. But, it turns out, people have very strong opinions about posting selfies. I’m going to ask you about this because of your chapter in this book about selfies. Specifically, I’ve seen an uptick in opinion pieces about acceptability, or respectability, around posting selfies, or “thirst-traps”. They are either writing against criticism they have personally received about having put thirst-traps online, or have felt pressure to post them, but they don’t want to, or they have a problem with other people doing it, or sometimes they are very body-positive and encouraging. Do you think there’s some sort of social pressure to have a strong opinion about selfies?
Treena Orchard: Sure I mean, whatever the motivations are it’s a really complicated set of issues. But I guess I haven’t been seeing those same articles in terms of thirst traps. I mean, some people are like, oh, it’s self-objectification. Some people are like, well, like, you mentioned, it is body positivity. I think it’s really individual and it seems so strange that we’re so obsessed with what everyone else is doing. And oftentimes, you know, sometimes it might be because we’re jealous of what someone looks like, or we don’t like them, or we see their numbers of followers go up, and we can’t figure out why the same thing isn’t happening for us. I mean, there’s so many different ways of looking at it, but just mind your own business. The pictures I post of myself on the internet don’t have any bearing on your life. I’m a consenting adult. This is my account, and this is how I want to convey my information.
Sarah Marie: I mean, you probably have to deal with more direct criticisms because you are talking explicitly about the experiences people are having in social media spaces where attracting romantic attention is maybe the point. You probably wouldn’t find a passive-aggressive thread about the problems people have with dating apps on actual dating apps, or something like that.
Treena Orchard: I think that when you’re participating in the public sphere, we need to be very mindful of the fact that once you say something it can be interpreted or taken up in different ways, and it can be used in a million different ways by people that you know. I’ve had to learn about how to speak about and respond to things in ways that don’t sound too defensive because if I’m on the defence I’m not going to be very articulate. And it can really mess up what, potentially, could be an interesting or strategic interview. Does that mean I’ve always responded in a way that is fulsome and reflexive and empathetic? No, some of my interviews are much better than others. But, I don’t sanitize what I say. You know, similar to how I teach. I teach from the place of myself, and the way I am with you on this call is how I am in the classroom. I don’t try to be someone else to be more palatable.
Sarah Marie: That’s an interesting way to think about it.
Treena Orchard: I try to be a bit patient, which is not a strength of mine, during certain interviews or when responding to social media comments. It’s a learning curve for me, and the more articulate and the more clear I can be, the more open-minded people are about my research, and they might be interested in listening to me. That is one of the goals of reaching as many people as possible, because I’m hoping that the message in the book, the message about inclusivity, and about speaking your truth and using your voice, will resonate.
Sarah Marie: Okay, I could keep going about this, because I am fascinated, but I have to cover a couple of other questions. You said earlier that you have written on this subject, or around this subject, in other spaces other than this book. But, when did you start working on this specific project?
Treena Orchard: I began taking notes as soon as I began swiping. So that was, like, August 2017. I didn’t know I was going to write a book. I definitely didn’t join dating apps to write a book. I began writing because I didn’t know how to manage how chaotic and frustrating and fascinating it was. It was so different from any dating experience I had. And, I’m an academic, you know? I’m a writer, so I had to write it down. A few months later, when I realized that I had 60,000 words I knew that this is something that I want to pursue as a book. I knew I didn’t want it to be a study. I wanted it to come from my life. Yeah, there is scholarly stuff, but then the book, the table of contents, has morphed. It was originally going to be just about Bumble, and then it shifted to focus more broadly on the other dating apps I’ve used, actually for much longer than Bumble, namely Tinder. The book has gone through a lot of different transformations.
Sarah Marie: Right. I’ve been told that some people write with like a goal, and they write toward that goal. But other people let the book evolve around a character, or a concept, and they write that. But I think you’re saying that this was a giant bunch of data, and that all of that data made sense to be a book.
Treena Orchard: Yeah, and there were moments, like, it was a long time from inception to publication, there were months where I just took a break and didn’t take any notes. I was in some significant relationships during the course of those 7 years (2017- 2024, publication) and so I wasn’t on dating apps the whole time.
Sarah Marie: What was it like working with University of Toronto Publishing for this? I mean, you probably got a bunch of offers.
Treena Orchard: No, I didn’t. I had a few offers for literary representation, and which is pretty cool, considering it was my first project of this nature. The agent that I signed with shopped it around, and they kept getting ‘no’. Then one of them had a connection with U of T Publishing and knew that they were trying to really kick start their trade imprint called AEVO, which is where my book was published. We had some initial meetings, and the press was pretty excited about the book, and it felt kind of like a natural space for me, to be at a university press.
Sarah Marie: That’s so good! Okay, so, the cover art for the book? Do you love it?
Treena Orchard: Yes. So, they asked for a couple of ideas, and the primary one that I was interested in was something lush and botanical that had somewhat of a little edge. Something sharp, something prickly. You know, Sticky, Sexy, Sad, is not just a happy go lucky story, right? There’s pain there, there’s sadness. Sad is in the title.
Sarah Marie: [laughing] Very true.
Treena Orchard: So, the masterful artist at Black Cat Designs gave me three images to choose from. And, honestly, there was no choice. It’s a beautiful flower and so unique. It’s absolutely a knock-your-socks-off cover. The flower is a real flower called the Night Queen, and it comes from a cactus. It’s beautiful.
Sarah Marie: What a great name!
Treena Orchard: It’s absolutely perfect. Every time I look at it, I just feel so grateful to that artist for choosing it. I’ve never seen a book that looks like that. I also never thought I’d want a white book-what if it gets dirty? But it just pops! And that particular version of the Night Queen is from an engraving from the 1700s. It has that kind of antiquity. I think love is a long story, you know? The search for love, the search for who you are, it’s such a long story. So the flower really ties in so nicely with my hopes for the book, and the main themes.
Sarah Marie: Are you working on any other books?
Treena Orchard: Yes. A million things, Sarah Marie! But, I’m hoping my next book will be looking at academic life and culture, and that is all I can say about it just now.
Sarah Marie: I really appreciate you taking the time to talk with me.
Treena Orchard: Thank you.
Treena Orchard is an anthropologist and associate professor in the School of Health Studies at Western University. She researches and engages in activist debates about sexuality, gender, and health among diverse cultural and digital communities. Deeply committed to public scholarship, she regularly writes for and is featured in leading online publications, including Cosmopolitan, Men’s Health, and The Conversation.
Publisher: University of Toronto Press (April 30, 2024)
Hardcover 9″ x 6″ | 256 pages
ISBN: 9781487549305
Sarah Marie is a perfectly unqualified, no-talent, lit/poetry enthusiast.A~literal nobody~ on social media, you may recognize her from commenting on your posts as if you sent them to her personally. She isvery impressedby your dedication to your work and to each other, and she believes in you.
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